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Is this TOU new? HeadlessGuy Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 163 W: 83 N: 498] (2282)::2009-02-12 20:40
Hey, I haven't been able to spend much time on TL lately so I don't know if this is new or not. I haven't seen it before.

I'm talking about the link to Terms of Use in the bottom of every page on TL.
Terms of Use

I don't fully understand the complications of running a site based on user created content but I do know that such sites need to retain publishing rights for the content that users submit in order to publish it on the site.
However, what worries me about the ToU is the following paragraph:
Intellectual Property

You represent and warrant that: (i) you own the content posted by you on or through the Site or otherwise have the right to grant the license set forth below, and (ii) the Posting of your content does not violate the privacy rights, publicity rights, copyrights, contract rights or any other rights of any person.

By displaying or posting content on the Site, you hereby grant us a nonexclusive global license to publish the content submitted by you to the Site. You also grant us global nonexclusive adaptation and resale rights over any content and material submitted to the Site. These nonexclusive publishing license and resale/adaptation rights extend to any materials submitted "for publication" within the Site, including both message board postings and content submitted for uploading and subsequent publishing within non-message board portions of the Site. Neither we nor our staff will be responsible for any misleading, false or otherwise injurious information and advice communicated on the Site or for any results obtained from the use of such information or advice. We will not be liable for any loss or damage suffered by a user through the user's reliance on information and advice gained on the Site.

If I understand the part marked in bold correctly it states that Internet Brands have the right to sell any user generated content (text or images). Not only can they sell it as it was posted but they can aslo take parts (paragraph or part of an image) and sell it.

Am I correct in my understanding?

Would be nice if someone from Internet Brands could verify this. If my understanding is correct I'm afraid I'll have to delete my gallery and call it quits.
Re: Is this TOU new? Zeperix Gold Star Critiquer [C: 136 W: 4 N: 116] (1069)::2009-02-12 22:00
This sounds like a very cleverly worded way of saying "You give us the right to do whatever we want with your photos including selling them." I had always thought of TL as a site that will not use my photos except for publication in my account. Am I wrong?
Re: Is this TOU new? atomas59 Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 597 W: 749 N: 637] (3826)::2009-02-12 22:27
1. Only one account per user is permitted.
2. You must be the photographer and copyright holder of all material posted to TrekLens.
i. You retain copyright and the ability to delete/edit your photos.
ii. You grant TrekLens the right to use your images for display anywhere on the TrekLens site.
iii. TrekLens is not responsible for unauthorized usage of your images outside the TrekLens site.
iv. You retain copyright for your forum postings. You give TrekLens a non exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free license to use your forum postings.

Hi, for what I understand, it that they can use everything posted on "forum" but that you're owning the rights over your photos, and you can choose to delete it or remove it anytime, if you wish.
Re: Is this TOU new? HeadlessGuy Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 163 W: 83 N: 498] (2282)::2009-02-12 22:41

1. Only one account per user is permitted.
2. You must be the photographer and copyright holder of all material posted to TrekLens.
i. You retain copyright and the ability to delete/edit your photos.
ii. You grant TrekLens the right to use your images for display anywhere on the TrekLens site.
iii. TrekLens is not responsible for unauthorized usage of your images outside the TrekLens site.
iv. You retain copyright for your forum postings. You give TrekLens a non exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free license to use your forum postings.


I think the above is from the Terms of Service, right? No where in the ToS is the ToU (Terms of Use - link in the bottom of every page) mentioned or linked to. Does the ToS supersede the ToU?

My concern is that in the ToU it states that:
By displaying or posting content on the Site, you hereby grant us a nonexclusive global license to publish the content submitted by you to the Site. You also grant us global nonexclusive adaptation and resale rights over any content and material submitted to the Site. These nonexclusive publishing license and resale/adaptation rights extend to any materials submitted "for publication" within the Site, including both message board postings and content submitted for uploading and subsequent publishing within non-message board portions of the Site.

The way I read the above is that by posting an image to TL you give IB the right (nonexclusive meaning that you still maintain your rights) to sell that image as it was uploaded or changed (parts of it, cropped or changed in any other way. It also clearly states that it includes content submitted to parts of the site that are not the forum/message board, i.e. images/photos.
Re: Is this TOU new? HeadlessGuy Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 163 W: 83 N: 498] (2282)::2009-02-12 23:00
The more I think about this the less I like it.

As I read this it would be perfectly okay for IB to say, publish a photography book with photos from TL and sell it without paying or even crediting the photographer.
You could add watermarks or signatures to your photos but they have the right to remove those (adaption) and still publish or sell the photos as is or part of a publication. They can even sell the photos to say, a record label for a CD cover.

Does anyone know when this ToU was published? Has it been here since they bought the site from Adam?
Oh, and the ToU is the same on TrekNature and TrekEarth.
Re: Is this TOU new? rewshearer Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 5496 W: 444 N: 4351] (24649)::2009-02-12 23:37
Has anyone asked Admin about this, yet?
Re: Is this TOU new? atomas59 Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 597 W: 749 N: 637] (3826)::2009-02-12 23:39
Hi again Jens,
Sorry but I couldn't see, where you had read that....but now, I do agree with you, why aren't those text, publish in the "about"?

It does raise a lot of questions, that's for sure.

Thanks for pointing that out.
why aren't those text, publish in the "about"? thor68 Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 391 W: 118 N: 752] (4553)::2009-02-13 2:27
hm, good question. maybe to not so easily be found?.....

i had the idea that IB "gave away" photos from me and others from Trekearth
to some travelsite (http://www.eutravelagent.com/) 2 weeks ago...strange.

i hope our questions will soon be answered by someone from IB.
Re: Is this TOU new? ErikSven Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 953 W: 157 N: 559] (3098)::2009-02-13 2:56
Intriguing, indeed. I can’t find the text in bold letters on the TrekLens website either. Obviously, the underlying aim of TrekLens is changing with the new site-owners.

I’d really appreciate if the TL-administration could provide us with more information about this via this forum thread.

Of course, we are only “guests” here, but at the same time, TrekLens lives through its member-photographers. As to the non-exclusive right of IB to use our photos, I think it would be kind and fair if, at least, the photographers were able to give their permission any time IB wants to use a photo. On the other hand, TL-membership being free, I am asking myself whether a “limited” free use of our photos by IB would be totally unfair… What's your opinion about that?

Finally, what if a TL-member decides to empty his or her account? I suppose IB keeps back-ups. Can they still make use of photos that have been deleted by their photographer?

Thanks, Jens, for having pointed this out.
E.
Re: Is this TOU new? thor68 Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 391 W: 118 N: 752] (4553)::2009-02-13 3:04
The Terms of Use are are at the bottom of each page.

http://www.internetbrands.com/ib/terms/travel?site=treklens.com&hasRSS=true


TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF USE

Content on the Site

Intellectual Property

You represent and warrant that: (i) you own the content posted by you on or through the Site or otherwise have the right to grant the license set forth below, and (ii) the Posting of your content does not violate the privacy rights, publicity rights, copyrights, contract rights or any other rights of any person.

By displaying or posting content on the Site, you hereby grant us a nonexclusive global license to publish the content submitted by you to the Site. You also grant us global nonexclusive adaptation and resale rights over any content and material submitted to the Site. These nonexclusive publishing license and resale/adaptation rights extend to any materials submitted "for publication" within the Site, including both message board postings and content submitted for uploading and subsequent publishing within non-message board portions of the Site. Neither we nor our staff will be responsible for any misleading, false or otherwise injurious information and advice communicated on the Site or for any results obtained from the use of such information or advice. We will not be liable for any loss or damage suffered by a user through the user's reliance on information and advice gained on the Site.


Links

Children Online Protection Act Notification
Re: Is this TOU new? thor68 Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 391 W: 118 N: 752] (4553)::2009-02-13 3:06
....wanted to add - they apply for Trekarth and Treknature, too:

http://www.internetbrands.com/ib/terms/travel?site=trekearth.com&hasRSS=true

http://www.internetbrands.com/ib/terms/travel?site=treknature.com&hasRSS=true
Re: Is this TOU new? Zeperix Gold Star Critiquer [C: 136 W: 4 N: 116] (1069)::2009-02-13 3:10
As I understand it, and I might be wrong. If TL is taken over by a new company they have to honour the agreements made previously. If they bring in new restrictions and or freedoms for themselves it can only apply to postings after they've released the new TOS or TOU. At least they should give you the option of withdrawing all the pics that came before the new TOU. If they don't then no-one would ever need a TOS or TOU as these can be changed at will regardless of the sentiments and understandings created by previous TOS and/or TOU.

I for one would really want TL to come clean on this and inform us on what is going on. Specifically:-

1. Does the TOU mean TL may use any/all of our pics for whatever purpose (including commercial/non commercial gain) they see fit?
2. Can we safely remove all our pics without TL using the backups as they see fit?
Re: Is this TOU new? paul_indigo Gold Star Critiquer [C: 1041 W: 4 N: 864] (6786)::2009-02-13 5:26
Like most companies there is a clause to enable the site owners to change the T&Cs without notifying users. The onus is clearly on the user to regular check for changes. See extract below.

"By accessing this Site, you accept, without limitation or qualification, the following Terms and Conditions. You are only authorized to use the Site and its services if you agree to abide by all applicable laws and to these Terms and Conditions. If you do NOT accept the Terms and Conditions, then please discontinue your use of the Site.

We may modify these Terms and Conditions from time to time and such modification shall be effective upon posting on the Site. You agree to be bound to any changes to these Terms and Conditions when you use the Site after any such modification is posted. Is it important that you review these Terms and conditions regularly to ensure you are updated as to any changes made. These Terms and Conditions constitute the entire agreement regarding your use of the Site and the services it offers and supercede any such prior terms."

As the first poster pointed out it states clearly in black and white that Internet Brands has the right to sell your pictures if you post them on TL. The language is plain and clear. It does not matter what any representative of the company may say on this forum or anywhere else. The T&Cs are legally binding and you have agreed to them. Therefore Internet Brands can now sell your images. What value they have at such small resolution is another question.

If you are not happy with the T&Cs you have no choice other than to delete your images and send an email to Internet Brands stating unequivocally that you are leaving the site. They will then legally not be able to use your images.
Re: Is this TOU new? HeadlessGuy Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 163 W: 83 N: 498] (2282)::2009-02-13 5:40
Surely changes to the TOS or TOU cannot affect anything posted (text or images) prior to the change being implemented.

I'd like someone from IB to explain the purpose of that paragraph in the TOU that states they can sell my images.

I'd also like to know when this change to the TOU was implimented.
Re: Is this TOU new? Dougie_J Silver Star Critiquer/Silver Note Writer [C: 12 W: 0 N: 14] (164)::2009-02-13 5:43
re 'Has anyone asked Admin about this, yet?'

Yes....

The Terms of Use are of a standard legal form used accross different IB sites. The wording applicable to Trek sites will be changed to remove reference to resale rights.
Re: Is this TOU new? Zeperix Gold Star Critiquer [C: 136 W: 4 N: 116] (1069)::2009-02-13 6:58
"If you are not happy with the T&Cs you have no choice other than to delete your images and send an email to Internet Brands stating unequivocally that you are leaving the site. They will then legally not be able to use your images."

Do you have the email address for IB?
Re: Is this TOU new? rewshearer Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 5496 W: 444 N: 4351] (24649)::2009-02-13 11:15
That would be reassuring to see, I certainly hope it happens.
Re: Is this TOU new? shelbeesmom Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 4160 W: 1109 N: 12719] (58276)::2009-02-13 11:22
Justine?? JuCo, I won't post your email address here, but we have some people asking for it. I am concerned, although I know that the image quality here on TL is NOT sufficient to print a book from. Still, I would not want my images sold to travel website etc. They are mine, I paid for the trip, the camera, the software etc. I understand your great concern Jens..I have it too.
Linda
Re: Is this TOU new? ErikSven Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 953 W: 157 N: 559] (3098)::2009-02-13 12:26
I understand your point, Linda.
But there is MUCH worse: imagine a Nikon enthusiast, who has one of his/her photos sold by IB for a Canon advertisement!
;o)
Re: Is this TOU new? Dawn Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 1101 W: 98 N: 3374] (17650)::2009-02-13 12:29
Im not happy to read all this about IB and their ability to sell our photos!!! Please admin can you answer our concerns on HERE!!!!!!!! thank you.

Im sure many will pull their photos if this is the case...but as someone pointed out do they have copies??
Re: Is this TOU new? shelbeesmom Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 4160 W: 1109 N: 12719] (58276)::2009-02-13 12:36
YIKES!! Erik..you are right...that IS worse...***I'm feeling pain in my wallet**
Re: Is this TOU new? ErikSven Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 953 W: 157 N: 559] (3098)::2009-02-13 12:40
I second your request, Dawn...
We can of course do like Paul Indigo suggests, if we're not happy with the way things are going. But I continue to think that there is more to TrekLens than a mere commercial value. It also is a community, with a certain "soul"...
Said this, maybe we are the "soul" of TrekLens, but we don't own it...
Re: Is this TOU new? shelbeesmom Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 4160 W: 1109 N: 12719] (58276)::2009-02-13 12:53
I agree Erik, there is a "soul" a community, and a group of friends I never thought I would have. We even have each other all on our FB accounts. B-(
Re: Is this TOU new? Texan Gold Star Critiquer [C: 543 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2009-02-13 13:07
thats its I am deleting photos
Re: Is this TOU new? JuCo (0)::2009-02-13 13:23
Well, of course everyone is welcome to remove their photos as they like. But I have responded to individual users on the site this morning and I'll share that here:

That is a standard template we use across all of Internet Brands' sites, so it isn't anything that was crafted with the Trek sites specifically in mind. We link to this page from all our sites.

But I see where it looks a little unsettling to you. I went and talked to the Legal Department about it.

The first part "global nonexclusive adaptation" rights simply means that we have the right to be showing your photos/posts on the site. It's the essential agreement between you and IB that IB has the right to display what you submit. So without that piece, the Trek sites can't really exist!

The second part "resale rights" is, again, just a standard part of the legal terms. But I recognize that this is probably the part that would make Trek members uncomfortable. I've spoken to Legal and they have agreed to remove "resale rights" from the Terms. Now, unfortunately, because this is the standard template, it'll require a little work to change the terms and link to the new page. At the moment, we're in the middle of upgrades across the network and so the queue is long. So bear with us as we take some time to make the change.

I hope that puts everyone's minds at ease.
Re: Is this TOU new? Texan Gold Star Critiquer [C: 543 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2009-02-13 13:24
Adios TREK!
No mas photos every delet mans Trek has 0 rights to the photos!
Re: Is this TOU new? ErikSven Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 953 W: 157 N: 559] (3098)::2009-02-13 13:56
Thank you for this information, Justine/JuCo. Because of the "community feel" that characterizes TrekLens, I think it was important to publish this message in the general forum.
Or course, we will be following the evolution. So, I suppose there will still be many clicks on the "terms of use"-link during the following days/weeks. ;o)
Re: Is this TOU new? Texan Gold Star Critiquer [C: 543 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2009-02-13 14:07
Resale rights are a big thing that is WHY I deleted all my photos. SInce I was not notified by the moderators of the change in status I find hard to post again. The TOS was changed without notification of this change to myself. If IB has sold any image on here that I posted without being notified of the TOS change IB better have good legal representation.
Re: Is this TOU new? Texan Gold Star Critiquer [C: 543 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2009-02-13 14:10
Since I was not notified of the TOS change I will NEVER submit a photo to IB sites again since they feel comfortable in change TOS on such a key thing without notifyng members.
Re: Is this TOU new? JuCo (0)::2009-02-13 14:23
Just to clarify, this isn't a change in the Terms of service. You can still find those here:
http://www.treklens.com/terms.php

Changes in the Terms of Service were announced on the site when they happened.

The "Terms of Use" is simply a blanket legal statement that every IB site links to once IB purchases it.

I hope my above post helps ease everyone's concerns!
Re: Is this TOU new? Zeperix Gold Star Critiquer [C: 136 W: 4 N: 116] (1069)::2009-02-13 14:27
"The "Terms of Use" is simply a blanket legal statement that every IB site links to once IB purchases it. "

So without taking into account the agreement between users and the previous owners? Sorry, not a good enough excuse for me. I've deleted all my photos. Looking for another site? Any ideas???
Re: Is this TOU new? JuCo (0)::2009-02-13 14:35
I am very sorry that this has shaken your faith in the Trek sites. I've done my best to reassure you and tell you that the Legal Department is responding in good faith to your concerns.

Of course, Trek members can always remove their photos at any time. IB's objective here is to continue to provide a space for you to share photos with your community and learn about photography and the world, which is what has always made the Trek sites so special.
Re: Is this TOU new? mortcdz Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Workshop Editor/Silver Note Writer [C: 1265 W: 197 N: 17] (53)::2009-02-13 14:41
Justine - I think a major learning point for IB about this is how thinks are communicated - once general concerns were voiced you have dealt with them (thanks!) but perhaps this could have been avoided with a different approach?

One other question I would like to see answered, although the "resale" element is being removed (and rightly so imho) what is the position regarding IB either using photo's from the Trek sites on other IB sites or IB "giving away" pictures to other internet companies?

I'd hate to think that I may have to sue a site for copyright infringement only to find that they have received my picture in good faith from IB.
Re: Is this TOU new? shelbeesmom Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 4160 W: 1109 N: 12719] (58276)::2009-02-13 14:45
I say to those who are jumping ship:
Only the strong survive. Where's the love? Where's the loyalty? What about giving these people a chance to make things right? After all, they host us for FREE. What about talking it over and working things out (I sound like a therapist).... but really, I've worked too hard to just up and RUN..it's like a marraige.
Re: Is this TOU new? JuCo (0)::2009-02-13 16:57
Hi...
I am always open to suggestions about how to better communicate with this community. :D
This link has been here for a while and I truly thought I'd found the information and answered the people who'd contacted me and was taking steps toward fixing it for the community without creating alarm. I was obviously wrong.

As to your other questions:
- we would never pass photos to another internet company, after all, that would go against IB's interest.
- IB has always contacted photographers and writers for written permission to use their material in the rare instance IB wanted to (in newsletters, for example)
Re: Is this TOU new? Texan Gold Star Critiquer [C: 543 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2009-02-13 17:32
Juco most people to deeply read TOU closely Trek had a set up and seemed logical the basics would remain the basics. Rights on a photo is something that is sensitive IB should have realized how big of an issue IT IS. WITH THE TAKEOVER THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN EMPHIZIED CLEARLY THIS WAS A SHIFT. I wish you would have made it far more clear when IB took over. I reacted and do not intend to post a photo on Trek again. Having seen photos of female boxers I have taken in places where I nor the boxer wanted them and have gotten into more then a few battles about it. As I have stated earlier I have reacted I have deleted photos in my acount.
Re: Is this TOU new? HeadlessGuy Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 163 W: 83 N: 498] (2282)::2009-02-13 20:01
Thanks Justine. This is what I was hoping for when starting the thread.

I don't have much time to spent on TL these days but I hope that will change in the future so I'm happy that the TOU will be changed.

After starting the thread I've done a little investigation and found that there has been the exact same issue on another site, Model Mayhem, operated by IB.

The changed TOU on that specific site used to be identical to that found on the Trek sites but now the part about intellectual property reads:

Intellectual Property

You represent and warrant that: (i) you own the content posted by you on or through the Site or otherwise have the right to grant the license set forth below, and (ii) the Posting of your content does not violate the privacy rights, publicity rights, copyrights, contract rights or any other rights of any person. If at any point you feel that others may be infringing on these rights, please contact us. You may find our contact information in the section on Infringement Policy below.

When you post content to the Site, you authorize and direct us to make such copies thereof as we deem necessary in order to facilitate the posting and storage of the content on the Site. Through the action of posting such content (images, text, video, etc) you are also granting the Site a non-exclusive worldwide license to use, copy, publicly display, publicly perform, reformat, translate such User content (in whole or in part) and distribute such content in connection with operation of the Site. This limited license does not grant Model Mayhem the right to sell or otherwise distribute your Content outside of the Model Mayhem Services without the express permission of the rights holder(s).

You may remove your User Content from the Site at any time. If you choose to remove your User Content, the license granted above will automatically expire, however you acknowledge that the Company may retain archived copies of your User Content. This Site does not assert any ownership over your User Content; rather, as between us and you, subject to the rights granted to us in these Terms, you retain full ownership of all of your User Content and any intellectual property rights or other proprietary rights associated with your User Content.


I think that changing the TOU of the Trek sites to the above would satisfy most of us here.

I don't see why IB needs to maintain rights to adapt any images posted to the Trek sites. I'm not sure that I would appreciate my photos being changed in any way and I don't see that happening on TL today so maybe that clause could be removed together with the resale clause?

Also, the addition of a termination clause would be great. Especially if it could be made to include the users rights to ask that IB deletes any copies of the content posted. I'm not sure that's even possible from a practical perspective but it I think it would put ease to mind of some of the members.

I hope that you will update this thread once the new TOU is implemented.

Thanks again!

Cheers,
Jens
Re: Is this TOU new? Zeperix Gold Star Critiquer [C: 136 W: 4 N: 116] (1069)::2009-02-13 22:37
"After starting the thread I've done a little investigation and found that there has been the exact same issue on another site, Model Mayhem, operated by IB."

So this was not an oversight? More a "pushing" of the envelope of tolerance and gullibility on the TL members' side? When push comes to shove the "letter of the law" takes precedence over the "spirit of the law". The extent of this is just too blatant to be glossed over with platitudinous exonerations. If it were such an "oversight" or "mistake" why has the wording not been rectified across the board after the Model Mayhem episode? I can only surmise that the inviolate copyright we assume for our photos (as good or as bad as they may be) is an afterthought for IB at best, at worst the thin edge of the wedge for exploiting the material. Lets say 5% of the photos have resale value - that's 15 000 photos out of 300 000.

I really want to believe that IB are acting in good faith. So where is the public apology and unequivocal revocation of any and all rights they have claimed during the time the modified TOU was published?
Re: Is this TOU new? mortcdz Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Workshop Editor/Silver Note Writer [C: 1265 W: 197 N: 17] (53)::2009-02-14 3:29
I'm not sure how many sites IB operate, but I know that when managing 5 sites I have used a very similar approach to the "one size fits all" in respect of terms of service and copyright notices. When it's one person looking after a site its easy to see the big picture - when there's a company things do get done in the minutae which at a macro level don't sit well - one area says "we need to make this change", the legal area check the wordings and change things, the IT world promotes the changes so the outside world can see it. What was missed here was a step for "pushing" the communication from IB to its stakeholders, as opposed to the more passive approach that was taken which was to hope that every stakeholder would see the small print themselves and read it.

Whilst I hold a black belt in cynicism I've worked with far too many big companies to know that these things so often happen more through oversight than through devious or malicious planning.

IB have set the record straight, the TOU will change, now folk need to either continue using the site as they see fit or else find another community.
One simple suggestion mortcdz Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Workshop Editor/Silver Note Writer [C: 1265 W: 197 N: 17] (53)::2009-02-14 3:34
Perhaps there's a simple answer here - post a simple couple of lines in both the "Announcements" and the "General" forum just saying something like "Terms of Service (or whatever) have changed. Take a look at this link. If you have any questions or concerns please contact ##@trek.com. Thanks"

The General forum attracts a lot of people who have strong opinions and care about TL so you're dissmeninating info through the kingpins on the site.

Just an idea.....
Model Mayhem Silke Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 2572 W: 237 N: 6132] (24044)::2009-02-14 5:35
Thanks for doing the research here, Jens
I agree -- the ToU of Model Mayhem would best be applied here on TL as well.
I am hoping that Justine will announce when that has been completed.
Obviously the Legal Department had already done the work for them so I see no reason why the TL ToU can't be exactly the same

Respectfully

silke
Re: Model Mayhem JoshLewis (49)::2009-02-15 13:47
So... Do they have the "rights" to sell members photos? This would be the diffrence between wanting to post and not!
Re: Model Mayhem Texan Gold Star Critiquer [C: 543 W: 0 N: 0] (0)::2009-02-15 16:22
Like I said because of the issue and the fact that the BIG shift in TOU was slid in without lights blazing we were given the new terms but like the Obama stimulis bill much was hidden. I have reacted I may crituqe but post in here.....NEVER again.
Re: Is this TOU new? appalcarp Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 1128 W: 161 N: 633] (4193)::2009-02-15 16:26
I hadn't read that before and it seems to conflich with the binding TOS as stated in the links. However, I'm still assuming that 'sale' pertains to their own sale of the site, for example, as Adam did some time ago. At least that's how I understand it. Since it creates a conflict, that opens up a legal can of worms, however. I do like the language of the 'alternate' site much better than this if that was the intent.
Re: Is this TOU new? duca Silver Star Critiquer [C: 17 W: 1 N: 1] (100)::2009-02-15 20:02
I was thinking about this "conflict" and I can not believe they are so naive to stipulate a clause infringing the United States and international copyright laws. And I think maybe you're right, Gary, saying "that 'sale' pertains to their own sale of the site, for example, as Adam did some time ago." Because also on the very bottom of every page (where we find the link to these TOS), there is another link and it is very clear: please, read this... Copyright © 2009 TrekLens.
Regards,
MCV
Re: Is this TOU new? HeadlessGuy Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 163 W: 83 N: 498] (2282)::2009-02-15 20:15
Adam sold a site with functionality and more importantly an existing (no promises for future) member base with a measurable activity level. That's the product that was sold.

If the photos were part of the deal then I think we have all been short changed here.

Fact of the matter is that the resale clause is completely irrelevant to the operation of this site UNLESS the photos were to be sold to a third party.

The only sites where a resale clause would make sense are stock sites and sites like photo bucket where you can open you own gallery and sell you photos.
server/hosts in the US thor68 Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 391 W: 118 N: 752] (4553)::2009-02-16 1:20
i was wondering if somebody here is familiar with the server/host situation in the US -
is godaddy.com or domains by proxy the only ones?

i checked whois and internetbrands, treklens, trekearth, treknature and different sites like http://www.germany-travel-guide.info and http://www.belgium-travel-guide.info
who are using photos from trekearth without permission are all registered at the same place:


Registrant:
Domains by Proxy, Inc.
DomainsByProxy.com
15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States
Re: Is this TOU new? appalcarp Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 1128 W: 161 N: 633] (4193)::2009-02-16 7:03
Thanks, I couldn't get that page to load last night for some odd reason when I clicked on it to check it. That sounds much more clear than the TOU. I think the TOU should be changed to match it more closely. Therefore two of the three (TOS and COPYRIGHT section) match to the original intent of the site as I understood it.

There is, in US Law, one exception to the statement, that is, educational use. If, for example, I'm teaching my students something about photography and reference a picture, it would not be improper. If anyone wishes to read it, it is available to read on the Internet.

And, as stated before, US Law leaves the enforcement to the original person with the copyright and unless one registers it with the Copyright Office, will be on his/her own to enforce it. There's a specific procedure that must be followed. Even saying that, it would be difficult for the Copyright Office, as underfunded as they are, to go after all individuals who might violate the specific laws in cases where it is registered properly. We can see the difficulty that there has been with China, for example, making copies of programs although there has been some improvement over the years.
Re: Is this TOU new? HeadlessGuy Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 163 W: 83 N: 498] (2282)::2009-02-16 7:27
Gary, I'm sorry, but your post has absolutely nothing to do with the original post. What does educational use have to do with selling a photo? What does China have to do with US (where IB is registered and from where the Trek sites are run) or International copyright law?

And, for your information, copying software, CD's, DVD's etc. is just as illegal in China as anywhere else. You need to consider the expanse of the country and the issues faced trying to enforce such laws.

Back to the original subject. IB has injected a 'Terms of Use' document that gives them the right to sell our photos as they are or parts thereof. What do you think about that?
Re: Is this TOU new? appalcarp Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 1128 W: 161 N: 633] (4193)::2009-02-16 7:48
I already addressed that, maybe in the other thread. Two of the three pages match, however, the TOU is a bit different, but I think the original intent was the same (the sale of the site, for example.)
Re: Is this TOU new? HeadlessGuy Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 163 W: 83 N: 498] (2282)::2009-02-16 8:01
So do you think it is reasonable that IB sell our photos as part of the site if they were to sell it?

I'm telling you, that's not how these deals go down as far as I know. What is being sold is traffic. TL has x number of members generating x numbers of hits per day/week/month. That's what's being sold. Hits to the server. Hits were you can show adverts.

If you sell something it is implied that the buyer has the right to use what is being sold in pretty much anyway (within the law) they see fit. IB does not, even with the updated TOU, have the rights to sell your or my photos with such rights to anyone.

It's not about IB wanting to sell of TL!!
Re: server/hosts in the US mortcdz Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Workshop Editor/Silver Note Writer [C: 1265 W: 197 N: 17] (53)::2009-02-16 10:29
As I understand it, and I'm not a lawyer so don't take this as gospel, under the Digital Millenium Copyright Act a website based in the USA is required to remove material from its site if there is a contention over the copyright of that material. Therefore if there are pictures on these sites which photographers on TL/TN/TE have taken and are being used without their permission then they should contact the site owners and immediately request that the material is removed pending the clarification of ownership of the copyright of the picture.

If the picture is linked to and not just copied then another form of activism is to replace the picture with something less "flattering" - I have seen some wonderful examples of companies linking to a picture which the owner then changes to something like "don't shop at xyz, go to ABC instead"
Re: server/hosts in the US atomas59 Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 597 W: 749 N: 637] (3826)::2009-02-16 13:12
I'm a bit concern about a few things here:

1+One is the fact that they seems to have two "term of service"

Why is there isn't just one, with the same content?

2-And other about the statement saying that we're responsable to keep up to date with the change that might happen pending those terms.

3-The slowlyness of the admin, to come clear with those issues.

What are you waiting for, that this get out of hands?

I'm a lot concern and desapointed by all of this.

And being somehow quiet about this, makes me even more worried.
Re: to the admin atomas59 Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 597 W: 749 N: 637] (3826)::2009-02-16 13:17
I think this is an urgent matter, and should be treated as such.
Re: to the admin mortcdz Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Workshop Editor/Silver Note Writer [C: 1265 W: 197 N: 17] (53)::2009-02-16 13:45
Denis - have you contacted the TL admin to make these points and get the answers that you are looking for? I'm not sure saying that its urgent and posting it into a forum is the way of guaranteeing the answers you're after
Re: to Mark atomas59 Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 597 W: 749 N: 637] (3826)::2009-02-16 13:58
Yes, i have.
Re: server/hosts in the US mortcdz Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Workshop Editor/Silver Note Writer [C: 1265 W: 197 N: 17] (53)::2009-02-16 14:03
Just my take on this -
1. The TOS are an artifact from the original days of TL. The TOU are IB specific and seem to generic enough to apply to any site they own (just inserting the name of the site at the top of the page). Arguably you could easily substitute the TOU for the TOS - the TOU are definately more detailed

2. In line with many many online resources there is no legal requirement for them to do anything but make the info available in a plain manner - IB have no obligation to tell people about the changes, just make them available. From the point of view of American contract law I believe this constitutes an "adhesion contract" - An "adhesion" contract is just what the name implies: you are stuck with it. It is imposed, often by a large company, on a take it or leave it basis. If you do business with that company, you must agree to its terms. Generally, courts allow such contracts unless they are manifestly unfair, or impose unconscionable terms. (from www.ilawyer.com)

3. Juco (Justine) has responded to the forums already - seems like quite a fast response. I believe she has also responded to other folk via email.

What is going to get out of hand here? 99.99% of the pictures on TL are not commercially viable shots - no stock photo site would accept most of the shots on TL and other than some travel sites its unlikely that many pictures have any real commercial value. If you have intentions to sell the pictures that you also post onto a free website then perhaps your business model needs a bit of a review.
Re: to Mark mortcdz Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Workshop Editor/Silver Note Writer [C: 1265 W: 197 N: 17] (53)::2009-02-16 14:04
You definately need to let us know what answers you get - thanks
Re: to Mark atomas59 Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 597 W: 749 N: 637] (3826)::2009-02-16 15:40
What I meant by "out of hand" was, that not everybody mignt understand what this all means. It might let to some confusion.
I think being clear and forward is the best solution for everything.
I don't think that I should have to check for those update, I think one detailed "term of service" should be enough and that should be made clear. If there is any update on those regulations or changed in it, well I think we should be clearly informed of thoses changes.

To me it look like those commercial adds, that show us in bold caratere what they want us to look at, but as for the warning they print it in such small caracteres, so as if the wish,they would go unotice. You can't be half honest, you are or you're not.

As for how many pictures here. are good enough for image banks, .01% is .01% too many.
Re: server/hosts in the US seneca77 Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 265 W: 80 N: 368] (2109)::2009-02-16 16:46
Thorsten,

No one has answered your question directly, so hopefully this helps...

Domains by Proxy, Inc., is a sister company of GoDaddy (which is a domain registration and web hosting company). Domains by Proxy's purpose is to keep hidden private information about who owns a particular domain from WHOIS queries.

For example, I own three websites and I pay a few dollars each month to Domains by Proxy to keep my personal information hidden. Otherwise, if you do a WHOIS search on one of my websites, you'll find my name, address, phone number, e-mail address, etc. By utilizing Domains by Proxy's services, you'll only see that the registrant is Domains by Proxy, Inc. - you won't see me.

Hope that helps clear things up!
- Bob
Re: server/hosts in the US thor68 Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 391 W: 118 N: 752] (4553)::2009-02-17 3:58
yes, thank you very much.
Re: server/hosts in the US JuCo (0)::2009-02-17 17:08
I will be posting an announcement when the adjustments to the ToU are made. I know this is a sensitive issue and that many of you are uncomfortable, but we are working to get this resolved and put everyone's minds at ease. I thank everyone for their patience.
Re: server/hosts in the US SunToucher Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 1376 W: 234 N: 1593] (8380)::2009-02-18 0:30
Hi Justine,
Please do all Trek members a favor and make the same announcement on TN and TL. There are a few complaints on TN that there is no communication of the owner with the TN members.

Niek
Re: server/hosts in the US JuCo (0)::2009-02-18 14:24
Please see the announcement in "announcements" and check our revised TOU.

I'll post on TN, too, thanks for the heads up.

Thanks again for your patience and I'm sorry this created worry here in the community.
Re: server/hosts in the US appalcarp Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 1128 W: 161 N: 633] (4193)::2009-02-19 8:16
I looked at it, thanks for the change.
Re: server/hosts in the US JoshLewis (49)::2009-02-20 13:34
This post is in response to thor68 about hosting...
"i was wondering if somebody here is familiar with the server/host situation in the US -
is godaddy.com or domains by proxy the only ones?

i checked whois and internetbrands, treklens, trekearth, treknature and different sites like http://www.germany-travel-guide.info and http://www.belgium-travel-guide.info
who are using photos from trekearth without permission are all registered at the same place:


Registrant:
Domains by Proxy, Inc.
DomainsByProxy.com
15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States"

I host serveral websites on a host called bluehost which has tons of space, and is cheap! Privacy from the whois is free, it offers you if you want it or not, and any time you want you can change from private and not... and can change it back again within seconds... so that they don't have my address on there ;-)
If internetbrands is still having it so that photo's posted are able to be sold, I suggest the owner switching to a better host! If that were the choice of action, through the webserver they can download the entire site, and tranfer it or something like that... but if this problem is no longer taking place..... well than even better. Anyone know if they changed it yet?
Re: server/hosts in the US JoshLewis (49)::2009-02-20 13:34
When I meant changed it... I meant the terms for the "resale".
Re: server/hosts in the US Silke Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 2572 W: 237 N: 6132] (24044)::2009-02-20 13:39
LOL
Considering the size of IB, I am willing to bet they are their own host :)
Re: server/hosts in the US appalcarp Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 1128 W: 161 N: 633] (4193)::2009-02-20 21:14
You're unable to click on the Terms of Use and read it?
PLR articles PLR ebooks rickthomas (0)::2010-06-26 13:34
This is a wonderful opinion. The things mentioned are great and
needs to be appreciated by everyone.
PLR articles PLR ebooks
Re: PLR articles PLR ebooks atomas59 Gold Star Critiquer/Gold Star Workshop Editor/Gold Note Writer [C: 597 W: 749 N: 637] (3826)::2010-06-26 15:33
don't believe in everythings you read.